RESOURCES:
Seven Stories Press: “Attack from Within: How Disinformation is Sabotaging America"
TRANSCRIPTION:
David Fair: As another presidential year heats up and a divided America once again is faced with important decisions, the question begs: Can we trust the information we're getting from the candidates, the media, and through the political positioning put forth online? Well, there's been foreign meddling in our elections, so-called news organizations are programming opinion shows that pose as journalism. And some of the candidates running for all levels of government are willfully trying to undermine faith in democracy, and the republic, for personal and party gain. I'm David Fair, and this is 89 one WEMU. I've just painted a rather grim picture, but these issues are worthy of exploration and conversation. These issues are the focus of a new book from Barbara McQuade. It's called "Attack from Within: How Disinformation Is Sabotaging America." Barbara is a professor from practice at the University of Michigan Law School. She's a legal analyst for NBC News and MSNBC and a co-host of the podcast "Sisters in Law." In 2010, McQuade was appointed U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Michigan by President Barack Obama. It was a job she held for seven years, and she was the first woman to serve in her position. Barbara, thank you for making time for us today. And congratulations on a New York Times bestseller!
Barbara McQuade: Well, thank you, David. Glad to be with you.
David Fair: Disinformation--certainly nothing new. It's been used throughout history as a means to an end. Why do you view disinformation, at this place and time, an existential threat to democracy and the sustainability of the republic?
Barbara McQuade: I think we are at this crisis moment for two main reasons. One is technology--the ability to use social media to send a message instantly to millions of people all over the world and to do so anonymously. It makes it very easy to deceive people. I think the other is that we are at this moment incredibly polarized in this country. It seems that, in recent years, we have identified with our party more than caring about any particular issue. And I think it's been a strategy by both parties since the 1990s. You know, there used to be a time when parties would court the middle in a general election. And now, the strategy is to double down on their base. And so, as a result, we find ourselves embroiled in culture wars instead of focusing on the kinds of kitchen table issues that really matter to people. And so, that combination is what poses such a danger to our democracy.
David Fair: You've said that your goal with this book is to create a national conversation and that, ultimately, and I'll quote you here, "It is about the essential need for truth in self-governance." That short statement packs a lot of responsibility into a lot of different areas of American life. What do you mean by it?
Barbara McQuade: So, one thing that I have seen, in recent years is not only some people who are deceived by false information online. And that alone is a problem. Thomas Jefferson said an informed electorate is essential to democracy. And so, if we don't have good information, we can't make good decisions. But I'm even more troubled by people who don't seem to care. They seem to think that it's all PR, it's all spin, truth doesn't matter. This is something you see in Putin's Russia, where the voters have become so cynical that they disengage from politics altogether. And that really cedes an important part of our power of the people in a democracy. You know, this idea that there's no such thing as truth. That it is elusive. You know, I spent my career as a prosecutor where I had to back up everything I said in court with effect, with evidence, with an exhibit, with a document, with an object, with a person who had eyewitness testimony about something. And so, there are such things as facts. And I think we need to get back to demanding facts before we're willing to reach a conclusion on something.
David Fair: Well, how do you create those conversations based on facts while hostility and polarization are in such abundance?
Barbara McQuade: Yes. I think one thing we need to do is to recognize that one of the reasons that we are at each other's throats is because of deliberate efforts by people to sow discord in society. In the 2016 election, as revealed by Robert Mueller's investigation of the Internet Research Agency, Russia was very much trying to sow discord in society by choosing all of our fault lines, whether it's abortion, immigration, affirmative action, guns, whatever it is, and driving a wedge into society there by pretending to be advocates for one side or the other and saying outrageous things, so that people would read these things and say, "Look at these people! Can you believe what they say?" And now, we hear the same things from our own people. I mean, Donald Trump refers to the people who have been convicted and imprisoned for their conduct--their violent conduct--on January 6th--he refers to them as hostages. And now, we hear other people in Congress picking up on that phrase.
David Fair: And at all levels of government. Yeah.
Barbara McQuade: In all levels of government. We have to push back against that because that...is it a joke? Is it owning your opponent? I don't know what it is, but it is damaging to democracy. So, how do you get past it? I think, one, is exposing falsehoods. The other, I think, is talking with our friends and neighbors in real life, not online, and not browbeating people because I think this sowing of division has made us want to yell at each other and be angry with each other and tell each other how wrong we are. And, instead, I think we need to come together. And if we care about unity, we need to speak to each other with grace and respect and tolerance and try to understand where someone else is coming from. I mean, there's a time not that long ago--my gosh, ten years ago--where you could be friends with people all across the political spectrum. And now, people that want to go to dinner with you if you align with the other side. And I think we have to realize that we're all on the same side. We're all Americans. There are important policy decisions for us to face and focus on. And when all we care about is whether our team is winning, it means America is losing because politics is the art of compromise. If we want to get anything done, we can't demand political purity on either side. We need to confront real issues and solve real problems. I mean, look at our issue at the border right now. It's a serious problem. And yet, we have not been able to address it because people just want to pick sides and accuse each other of having positions that are dangerous to America or anti-American or whatever they are. Instead, we gotta set those things aside and work together to actually solve problems. So, I think when we realize we're all in this together and stop attacking each other, I think that's when America can win. But the forces that are pushing us apart are working really hard to do that. And so far, they're prevailing. So, I hope my book can help people identify the tactics, name them, reveal them, and build resilience to them, so that we will no longer be manipulated by them.
David Fair: This is 89 one WEMU, and our conversation with author and University of Michigan law professor Barbara McQuade continues. Her book is called "Attack from Within: How Disinformation Is Sabotaging America." Her book tour has been taking her across the country, and she'll make another stop in Ann Arbor on Sunday at Barnes and Noble at 2 p.m. I suspect, Barbara, that most young people exploring law as a career do so with some sense of idealism. Like most journalists I know, there's a sense that finding and telling the truth serves a greater good. I can also say a good deal of the attorneys and reporters I know struggle with a growing sense of cynicism. Trust in the rule of law and ethical standards is waning. Have you found that through your career, and working in the court system, and as a professor with students at the University of Michigan?
Barbara McQuade: Yes, I think trust in the court system is absolutely waning. I think it's something that we've been seeing with jurors who come in to serve that they have distrust of law enforcement or the courts. I think our students see what's happening in the Supreme Court and question the integrity sometimes of the process or of some of the justices who are there. But I think one of the things we need to do is to make sure we don't undermine the very institutions that hold our democracy apart from other forms of government around the world. The institutions, though, are only as good as the people who operate within them. And so, I think we need to demand accountability from people who abuse their public trust when they work in institutions. But I also think we have to call out falsehoods that are designed to undermine trust in our institutions. You know, when I hear Donald Trump accusing some of the judges assigned to handle his cases by nothing other than the virtue of the blind draw of their court and accusing them of engaging in election interference by simply presiding over the cases that are assigned to them, I see somebody who's trying to undermine public confidence in the court, so that if and when there's an adverse outcome in that case, you can say, "See? I told you all along that it was not legitimate." And I think, regardless of the outcome of that case, it does tend to have this long-term corrosive effect on people's confidence in the courts. And so, I think we need to call that out. And when people individually abuse their power within courts or law enforcement, we need to call that out, too.
David Fair: I know what you're saying is going to make a lot of sense to people hearing your voice. But as you hold these book signings and lecture events around the country, I don't imagine the crowd is populated with a lot of MAGA hats. Who is showing up? Is it mostly like-minded liberals or is there some crossover? Are you seeing avenue for that dialog to open up in the era of Donald Trump?
Barbara McQuade: I am. I think so. You know, certainly, as you say, there's certainly plenty of people who are progressives, but I've been very heartened to see a lot of people who are people I would consider moderate Republicans, people who are, we call them, Milliken Republicans. George Bush and George W Bush Republicans, I think, are very open to this message because it's not about politics. I don't care if your views are conservative or progressive. What I really care about is that you're telling the truth, and that we're going to compromise and reach problems and solve problems. And maybe not everybody is satisfied with half a loaf when there is genuine debate about issues, but half a loaf is certainly better than no loaf. And eventually, we get to a right place that will satisfy the majority of our country and address concerns. Throughout our history, our nation has made great progress moving toward a more perfect union. And sometimes, we've taken two steps forward and one step back. I think we're in that moment now, where we've taken one long step back. But I am hopeful that if we can persuade people that truth matters and that we need to choose truth over our political tribe that we can get back to taking two steps forward.
David Fair: We're talking with Barbara McQuade about her book, "Attack from Within: How Disinformation Is Sabotaging America." You not only go at great length in describing the issues that we face today, but you propose a series of solutions as well. And in looking to create truth in self-governance, you propose further investment in public education and creation of media literacy programs as part of that investment. And you contend there's evidence that it works in other countries.
Barbara McQuade: Yes, that's right. So, I mean, I think we should do some things from the other side, too, to stop the flow of disinformation. But I also think one of the things we can do for ourselves is build up some resilience, so that we are less likely to be deceived by some of these tactics. And one of those is media literacy. In Finland, there has been great success introducing media literacy into schools. They have suffered longer than we have from disinformation from Russia as their neighbor. And so, they've taken it upon themselves to educate their people about disinformation tactics, so that they can be better consumers of information--read things with a skeptical eye and look for a second source and other things, so that they are less likely to fall prey to it. I think another thing that we need to do, David, is recommit ourselves to civics education. There was a time in this country when everyone in school learned about civics. I certainly did. I learned about the three branches of government and learned about checks and balances and all of the things that are important in our systems and our institutions. And today, sadly, a lot of that has really waned. I have read a study put out by NPR that we spend $0.05 on civics education in public schools for every $50 we spend on STEM education. Now, STEM education is certainly important. I don't want to take it away. And it likely costs more to provide all of the equipment that is needed in STEM education. But $0.05 and some schools aren't teaching it at all. And I know there's a lot of things competing for people's attention with standardized testing and preparation for that and all the other things. But civics education is really important to educating the next generation of citizens in this country and the next generation of leaders. And I think, without that civics education, we're more likely to fall prey to some of these false claims, like a gag order is silencing me from defending myself in court Absolutely not! Or a president is immune from any act that he takes while he's in the Oval Office. And that's absurd, right? I mean, that would violate the idea of checks and balances. But I think those things probably sound pretty good to somebody who's never learned about those things.
David Fair: Well, other components you've identified in finding solutions to the disinformation issue include campaign finance reform and the elimination of dark money in politics. Of course, political campaigning has become its own economy. The corporatization of government has threatened the concept of "one person, one vote." And even the U.S. Supreme Court appears to have been compromised by the influx of political money and personal favor. Without addressing those issues, is any of the other potential solutions even possible?
Barbara McQuade: They're possible, but I think far better would be to address some of those underlying problems of campaign finance. And you know what gives me hope, David? The experience we had right here in Michigan with the Voters Not Politicians group. You know, for years, we suffered from gerrymandering in this state. And as a result, we saw some skewed results in our elections. But we passed legislation to create this Voters Not Politicians group. And as a result, they created new district lines for our state and federal campaign districts. And as a result of that, we've seen some profound changes. For example, for the first time in 40 years, when those new districts were used, the Legislature in Michigan flipped from Republican to Democrat--first time in 40 years. So, if we can do that, it seems to me that we can also do some meaningful reform regarding campaign finance. One of the things that has led us down this path is a Supreme Court decision from 2010 called--
David Fair: Citizens United.
Barbara McQuade: Citizens United. And I don't think that case is going to get overturned anytime soon. What it said is that corporations, organizations and labor unions have the power to spend unlimited amounts on campaigns, as long as they don't coordinate with a specific candidate. And that has opened the floodgates to dark money and super PACs without the ability to know who those donors are. So, assuming we can't overturn Citizens United, I do think, though, we could at least require disclosure of who is funding those super PACs, because then, the public could see that what might look like some grassroots organization with a name like the Red, White and Blue Grandmothers of America is in fact a single donor or some special interest or some industry group. And I think that could go a long way toward discrediting their message.
David Fair: Well, disinformation, lack of transparency, authoritarian tactics are already underway in the 2024 presidential campaign. While the nation takes stock and looks at these ways to create a more truthful future, what do you recommend to better ferret out attempts between now and November?
Barbara McQuade: Yes. I think we should prepare ourselves to be hit with disinformation campaigns relating to the election. They typically take three forms. One is influencing the outcomes, so attacking a particular candidate with false claims. Another is simply dampening voter turnout among various groups who are likely to vote for one's opponents. And then, the final one is undermining public confidence in the outcome altogether, so that the loser can challenge the outcome if people believe that the election was not legitimate or that it was somehow rigged. And all of these are damaging to society and to our democracy. And so, what do we do? I think one is we be on the lookout for some of these false claims. If there's something we see that makes us feel outraged or we think is incredibly sensational, perhaps be a little bit skeptical and look for a second source. I think that's one thing. The other is I think we should find now, while we can, good sources of information, so that we're not fooled when it comes time for the election in this election-dampening idea or voter suppression idea. You know, there was, for example, an AI-generated robocall in New Hampshire this year during the primaries that purported to be the voice of Joe Biden urging voters to stay home. Imagine if voters got that and did stay home and didn't vote and didn't find out until days later that it was a fake or a false claim that there's a power outage at your polling place and you're going to vote there on Wednesday instead, and you waste your vote. So, knowing where to get accurate information in advance is important. I always recommend our Secretary of State's website. It's a good place for reliable information about how to vote, or the League of Women Voters, which does incredible work and has nonpartisan, accurate information about voting.
David Fair: And it is going to be vitally important that we stay vigilant and informed. And your book will help do that. I thank you very much for the time and the the conversation. And, again, congratulations on a New York Times bestseller!
Barbara McQuade: Thanks so much, David! Great to be with you! Thank you!
David Fair: That is Barbara McQuade, professor of practice at Michigan Law and author of the book, "Attack from Within: How Disinformation Is Sabotaging America." It is available online at barbaramcquade.com, at Amazon, and at retailers like Walmart and Barnes and Noble. And in fact, Barbara McQuade has a book signing and appearance at the Ann Arbor Barnes and Noble store this Sunday at 2 p.m. For more information and all of the links you'll need, pay a visit to our website at wemu.org. I'm David Fair, and this is your community NPR station, 89 one WEMU FM, Ypsilanti.
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