SARAH MCCAMMON, HOST:
When he returned to the White House, President Trump said his foreign policy approach would build peace through strength. So far, that's meant making some unconventional moves.
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AILSA CHANG: President Trump is threatening more tariffs.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER #1: All of the programs funded by the United States Agency for International Development have been put on hold.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER #2: President Trump is again expressing doubt about NATO's mutual defense pact.
MCCAMMON: My next guest says Trump's approach has isolated the U.S. on the world stage, and that's a dangerous thing. Kori Schake is director of foreign and defense policy studies at the American Enterprise Institute. That's a conservative think tank based in Washington, D.C. She served on the National Security Council and in the U.S. State Department during the George W. Bush administration, and she recently wrote a piece in Foreign Affairs called "Dispensable Nation: America In A Post-American World." Kori Schake, welcome to the program.
KORI SCHAKE: Thank you for having me. It's a real privilege.
MCCAMMON: You write that President Trump has a deep-seated ideological conviction that allies are a burden. As you see it, what is Trump's overarching philosophy when it comes to foreign policy?
SCHAKE: You know, there's a paradox at the center of it, which is that President Trump seems to believe the U.S. is a disaster economically, socially, and overextended internationally. But at the same time, his policies actually reduce American power and ignore the extent to which it fundamentally relies on cooperation from other countries in order to work. For example, he seems to think that no other country has any choices but to capitulate to American demands. And what I think we begin to see is other countries, including America's allies, beginning to hedge against American power.
MCCAMMON: Right. You warned that, you know, America is at risk of losing its place not just because Trump may pull back, as some have speculated, but also because, as you say, other countries just might not cooperate with the U.S. I mean, where do you see that happening already?
SCHAKE: Sure. Just to take one example, when the Trump Pentagon arbitrarily decided Japan needed to spend 5% of its GDP on defense, the Japanese just declined to meet with the United States to discuss it. Japan and South Korea are considering entering into a trade agreement with China in order to have greater predictability than the U.S. is exemplifying with the arbitrary and extreme tariffs that the Trump administration isn't even negotiating. They're just announcing by public letter.
MCCAMMON: And what about the rest of the world? I mean, we've talked about the impact on the U.S. if the U.S. role in the world diminishes. But where do you see Europe and other allies turning if they no longer see the U.S. as a reliable partner?
SCHAKE: As objectionable a hegemon as the United States might be, the countries that are America's friends and allies and the most prosperous other countries in the world don't want a Chinese-dominated international order, so there's not an obvious replacement for American power. But what you will see, I think, unless the Trump administration adopts friendlier international policies towards America's actual friends and allies - what you will see is sand coming into the gears of international cooperation. So you will see higher tariffs, less assistance to the United States. It could be that the United States has to fight a war for the first time in its history without the cooperation and participation by other countries because given our behavior, why would other countries run the political, economic and military risks that the U.S. wants them to run?
MCCAMMON: You know, as you're talking, it occurs to me that there are critics of U.S. foreign policy - both on the right and the left, really - who would like to see the U.S. recede, who see the U.S. role in the world as often destructive and intrusive. How do you respond to those critics?
SCHAKE: Well, I'm sympathetic to the argument, but what I think it overlooks is the fact that sustaining an international order that is this advantageous to American interests is a lot less costly than having to protect or reconquer those advantages for our country. If we allow the current cooperative international order to collapse because of our own choices, it will get much more expensive to try and do things without other countries' help, without the international institutions that amplify American power and against the current dangers that are growing in the international system - China and Russia's aggressiveness, their cooperation with North Korea and Iran. You know, the world's a very dangerous place, and it's a lot more dangerous when you don't have the help of friends and allies in the way the United States currently does.
MCCAMMON: We started the conversation by noting that you are with a conservative-leaning think tank, the American Enterprise Institute. For those who do see an important role for the U.S. on the global stage, Trump's critics often look to Democrats to counter his influence, but is there a role for conservatives to play in preserving America's role in the world or for calling on President Trump to take a different approach?
SCHAKE: Absolutely, there is. The discussion about America's role in the world is principally a discussion among conservatives. And principled conservatives have to win the argument against Trump and the people around him because if we don't, America will be less safe, it will be less prosperous, and that is contrary to the principles of conservatism, which defend human dignity, expand economic opportunity and make the world a freer and safer place.
MCCAMMON: Kori Schake is a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. Thanks so much for your time.
SCHAKE: It was a pleasure.
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