LEILA FADEL, HOST:
For more on whether Russia would consider the latest U.S.-backed peace plan to end the war in Ukraine, we turn to Kurt Volker. He's a former ambassador to NATO and President Trump's former U.S. special envoy for Ukraine negotiations. Ambassador, good morning and welcome back to the program.
KURT VOLKER: Good morning, Leila. Thanks for having me.
FADEL: So we heard there from our correspondent that Witkoff has met with Putin six times and yet no deal. Do you think this time, with this new 19-point plan, this will be any different when it comes to Russia's willingness to make concessions?
VOLKER: Not at all. It's very clear that Russia wants to subjugate Ukraine, take all the territory that they claim to have annexed and have that recognized as Russian. They want severe limitations on Ukraine's sovereignty going forward. These are things that we've heard many, many times. And he's - the Kremlin has indicated already that they're not prepared to accept anything less.
FADEL: So do you think these meetings are then futile?
VOLKER: Look, I think it's always useful to, you know, probe and test. But I think that we ought to be delivering a message of strength, saying we believe that Russia needs to end this war, withdraw troops from parts of Ukraine, and we're going to make life very difficult for Russia if they don't do that. But unfortunately, that's not the message we're conveying. We keep saying, well, you know, what about this? What about this? And Putin just keeps making demands while he keeps killing Ukrainians.
FADEL: Now, President Trump and the U.S. are playing a very public role in this process. What other parties - places like China, the Gulf States, Europe - what role are they playing in this process and in Russia's calculus?
VOLKER: Well, I think in Russia's calculations, they are looking at this principally as the West that is seeking to support Ukraine. And they are using the war in Ukraine both for the objective of subjugating Ukraine, but also dividing the West, weakening NATO, questioning American resolve to defend NATO countries. This is a twofer for Russia. They can try to take Ukraine and weaken the West at the same time. For what people sometimes call the Global South, they don't look at this as their war. They are sympathetic to Ukraine as the victim of external aggression. They would like to see the war over so it's not a humanitarian or a geopolitical issue they need to deal with. But they don't see it as their problem, so they're not getting involved.
And as far as China's concerned, I - Russia relies on China. Russia is the much weaker partner between China and Russia. China doesn't really care whether Russia succeeds in taking Ukrainian territory or not. That's not their interest. They wouldn't want to see Russia abjectly defeated. It is useful for China for the U.S. and the West to be distracted, dealing with Russia's war in Europe, so that China feels it has more of a free hand in Asia.
FADEL: Now, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy was in France on Monday, meeting with European allies who are providing or buying all the weapons Ukraine is using. Europe has expressed concern about the way the U.S. is dealing with Moscow right now. Does Europe have to play a final role in any possible deal, or can the U.S. bypass Europe?
VOLKER: No. Europe is absolutely essential. And this is a key point because if you get a ceasefire - and to be clear, I don't think a peace agreement with Russia, with Putin, I should say, is ever possible. He will always have maximalist demands. He may be under enough pressure to agree to a ceasefire. If we get a ceasefire, the goal that we all have to have is to prevent an outbreak of the war again, prevent Russia from attacking again. And to do that, we need to deter Russian aggression. That's going to rely on security assurances for Ukraine, on Europe being prepared to deter those Russian attacks, maybe a deployment of a coalition-of-the-willing force into Ukraine, competent, capable NATO forces that are present. The U.S. doesn't want to have troops on the ground. We don't want to be tied in Europe quite as much as that. We want Europe to do more. But if we want that from Europe, we need to be making sure that they are prepared to live with whatever agreement comes out, if there is any agreement.
FADEL: Why isn't Europe taking a more active role in the process, themselves being mediators instead of the U.S.?
VOLKER: Well, it's a good question. Yeah. Partly, the Trump administration has just gone direct to talking with Russia, and talking with Russia in ways that Europe itself would not do. But partly, the Europeans have a lot of capability. As you pointed out, they're buying all the weapons now. They're providing a lot of financial support to Ukraine as well. And yet at the same time, they've not managed to turn that into leadership. They are not leading the process. They are watching the U.S.
FADEL: Kurt Volker is a former ambassador to NATO and President Trump's former U.S. special envoy for Ukraine negotiations. Thank you.
VOLKER: Thank you so much. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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