ABOUT JENNIFER GRANHOLM:
Jennifer M. Granholm was sworn in as the 16th Secretary of Energy on February 25, 2021.
Secretary Granholm led DOE's work to advance the cutting-edge clean energy technologies that helped America achieve President Biden’s goal of net-zero carbon emissions by 2050 while creating millions of good-paying union clean energy jobs and building an equitable economy. Secretary Granholm also oversaw DOE’s core missions of promoting American leadership in scientific discovery, maintaining the nuclear deterrent and reducing nuclear danger, and remediating the environmental harms caused by legacy defense programs.
Prior to her nomination as Secretary of Energy, Jennifer Granholm was elected Governor of Michigan, serving two terms from 2003 to 2011.
After two terms as governor, Jennifer Granholm joined the faculty of the University of California, Berkeley as a Distinguished Professor of Practice in the Goldman School of Public Policy, focusing on the intersection of law, clean energy, manufacturing, policy, and industry.
Secretary Granholm is an honors graduate of both the University of California, Berkeley and Harvard Law School. She and her husband, Daniel G. Mulhern, have three children.
ABOUT LISA WOZNIAK:
Lisa’s career spans over two decades of environmental and conservation advocacy in the political arena. She is a nationally- recognized expert in non-profit growth and management and a leader in Great Lakes protections. Lisa is a three-time graduate from the University of Michigan, with a bachelor's degree and two ensuing master's degrees in social work and Education.
Lisa serves a co-host and content partner in 89.1 WEMU's '1st Friday Focus on the Environment.'
RESOURCES:
Michigan League of Conservation Voters
TRANSCRIPTION:
David Fair: This is 89.1 WEMU and welcome to the April edition of First Friday Focus on the Environment. I'm David Fair and we have a number of challenges these days. Restricted access to Middle East oil and gas prices skyrocketing. There's a concerted federal effort to reduce the use of wind, solar and renewable energies. Corporate deregulation creates risks and hazards for environmental stewardship and data centers are becoming ubiquitous and can be a massive drain on energy and water resources. It's a lot to take on. My partner on First Fridays, he is Lisa Wozniak. She is the CEO and President of the Michigan League of Conservation Voters and today arranged a very special guest and energy expert to join us.
Lisa Wozniak: And, David, someone virtually everyone will know. Jennifer Granholm is the former governor of Michigan and served as the U.S. Secretary of Energy in the Biden administration. Secretary Granholm, thank you so much for making time for us today!
Jennifer Granholm: You bet, Lisa! So glad to be able to have a conversation with you! Appreciate the work that you do1
David Fair: Thanks in part to your work as Governor of Michigan and then as Energy Secretary, the transition to clean energy has begun. The Trump administration has a different approach to renewables and in fact undermines existing and new projects in favor of continued reliance on the fossil fuel industry. All of this comes at a time when energy costs are rising. When you look at the situation, how are you projecting out on the issue of energy affordability?
Jennifer Granholm: Well, it's very frustrating that the least expensive sources of energy have been cobbled by this administration in terms of deploying solar and wind. Right now, they are the cheapest sources of energies, so if you don't, if you're all of a sudden experiencing a supply crunch. And you don't allow the other forms of energy, which are abundant to be able to be built out, or at least you take away any incentives for that to happen, then you really are shooting yourself in the foot in terms of affordability. So, it's very frustrating to see, not only that, but the taking away of incentives for electric vehicles, similar situation. They want everybody to rely on fossil fuel vehicles, so why wouldn't we give people the opportunity to lower their cost. By being able to purchase much more readily electric vehicles and build them in the United States.
Lisa Wozniak: While we see what's happening at the federal level, we're making progress in states in a lot of respects. But we're also seeing demand continue to rise and emissions continue to climb. So, a big question for you is, what is the actual feasibility of achieving 100% renewable energy and by when?
Jennifer Granholm: Well, I mean, we've been set back a bit. The goal was to be able to get to net zero by 2050 and fully reliant on clean energy. And when I say clean, I'm including nuclear in that, but obviously renewables as well. It's just that we've got to endure these years of a real push on expanding fossil fuels. We will get there. We may not get there by 2035, as we had hoped, but maybe we'll get there by 2040. But I do believe the world is still moving, I know the world is still moving in this direction. And honestly, Lisa, the demand forecasts for additional power that will be required for these data centers for electrification of transportation for large loads. That, you know, the estimates are between now and anywhere between 50 and 150 gigawatts, which is a huge range, but it's also a huge amount that we have to add to the U.S. Grid. And you know the vast majority, 92%, 94% of everything that's been added over the past few years, has been renewables. So, let's keep going on that. And a lot of the hyper-scalers, the big tech companies, they have as a mandate that they are going to power their data centers with renewables, not all of them. With clean energy but not all of them but that will help to drive... in my opinion, the continued push for renewable energy in the country
David Fair: You know, they say all politics is local, ultimately. Do you see the broader public beginning to get more on board with the advancing clean energy development to kind of hedge against volatile fossil fuel prices and drive down long-term energy costs?
Jennifer Granholm: Well this is a great question. I think that people look at this like Ukraine 2.0. We see the Strait of Hormuz creating a choke point. You know, the U.S. doesn't get its oil from what goes through the Strait of Hormuz so much... It’s really Asia. But it's a global market, prices go up and therefore people are looking at alternatives. I know that there's been an uptake in interest in looking at electric vehicles, particularly used electric vehicles which are in many cases cheaper than internal combustion engine used vehicles. So, people are looking at alternatives. People are looking, can I hang a solar panel from my balcony? Can we have state legislation that allows me as a citizen to create my own power? All of those, that's definitely happening around the world. Around the world, the response to this is extreme acceleration toward either renewables or, unfortunately, back to coal because people have to have power and if they don't have it in one area, they're going to find it in another. But I think there will be an inexorable move toward the clean energy transition as we see these price shocks.
David Fair: This is First Friday Focus on the Environment on 89.1 WEMU on this April edition. Our guest is Jennifer Granholm. She is the former governor of Michigan and more recently the secretary of energy in the Biden administration. The other voice you hear is that of my First Friday partner, Lisa Wozniak.
Lisa Wozniak: Well, let's shift to another topic, which you've already mentioned: AI and data centers. And here in the listening area in Washtenaw County, there was a data center approved recently in Saline Township. There's a community battle over a proposed center in Augusta Township, the University of Michigan and Los Alamos National Laboratory are looking at a huge computing facility in Ypsilanti Township and in Van Buren Township, which sits right along the border between Washtenaw and Wayne counties, there is a major proposed project, a data center on the way. And I wonder, as former U.S. Energy Secretary, how are you looking at these centers?
Jennifer Granholm: Yeah, I think this has got to be done right. I mean, first of all, I think these data centers that have large loads, if they are done right, they can actually be an asset to not just the grid, but to affordability. Why do I say that? I mean if they, number one, bring their own power or bring their capacity and they pay for the system upgrades that are necessary to connect them to the grid and they agree to be flexible in the of their loads. When the grid is at capacity. Maybe they shift work to other facilities or maybe they dial back the uploading of cat videos or whatever. If they do those three things, if they're flexible, if they pay for the upgrades and if they bring your own power, there are studies that show from Lawrence Berkeley National Lab, from the Brattle Group, that for every gigawatt of new power that's done right, you can actually lower costs for people by one to two percent. Because now you have a large user that is actually paying for the system in a way that helps to share the load and spread the load much more favorably for existing users. But not all of them are doing this well. And so, I think of the one in Van Buren Township as an example of, I think, the right trajectory. It's more transparent. First of all, we know it's Google. They have agreed that they will bring their own power, that they will help to supply the local community with benefits, like weatherization benefits to homes there. They've agreed to pay for the upgrades and for the power. They're using clean power in their arrangement. And they're using advanced cooling mechanisms so that water use is less than it would otherwise be. And they're not pulling from the aquifers, etc. They're using the water system, they're purchasing water from a system that already has more than enough capacity. So, all of those things suggest that there are ways to do it right. Google, Microsoft, they have been experimenting with all of these advanced cooling systems to reduce water use. Some of the others are less transparent. Especially in other areas like in Virginia where they're buying power off the grid which means that citizens are having to cope with that demand tension of using additional power and paying more as energy bills are going up. If you can get a hyper-scaler to agree that their costs will not be socialized, will not be paid for by ratepayers, they can actually be an asset to the grid. And they can act as what is known as a virtual power plant to be able to provide strength to shore up the grid. It's got to be done right though. And that's why I think what's happening in Michigan and what's happening in some other areas is these are great lessons for whether it's regulation or, you know, for the public service commission to take a look at.
Lisa Wozniak: Yeah, so getting this right is complicated because, as you know, to establish an effective system of oversight and governance, there's got to be an alignment in some way, shape, or form between and or among federal, state, and local units of government. And here in Michigan, the townships and the cities are the ones that are actually making such huge decisions about these. So, what's your recommendation as we look at that complexity?
Jennifer Granholm: I mean, I do think there has to be an alignment, you're right, and the community has to be a part of this. And this is why transparency is so important. And I think these hyper-scalers have to understand that they have got to be a community asset as well. So yes, you will see an increase in tax base, which is great for schools, et cetera. Yes, you'll see a job impact, you know, hyper-scalers don't hire thousands of people once the facility is open, but certainly they hire folks who have great jobs and certainly on the construction side there are thousands of people who are hired. But the community has to be a part of this and they have to feel secure and they have to know that they have a good partner and this is why a lot of the hyper-scalers are now looking at community benefits and arranging them with the community and consulting with them. In some places, for example, you're seeing people get solar panels and heat pumps as part of the deal. People in a region that get those can be part of that demand flexibility that is part of a power stack. That means people can be rewarded for being able to adjust their power needs by using clean energy and heat pumps, et cetera. So, there's ways to do this that are really beneficial for a community, but if it's done under the cloak of darkness and people don't know, people don’t have the ability to have input on water, on power usage, etc., then it's much more difficult to do. So, I think the smart hyperscalers are really coming in, they’re learning for Michigan, because what happened in Saline Township with the Oracle site, if I'm not mistaken…that was a lesson that you’ve gotta be transparent. It’s a really interesting time. Michigan is really at the front of the line in educating other places about how to do it right.
David Fair: Given all of that and the polarized nature of data centers at this point in public sentiment, how is it possible to avoid the kind of boom-and-bust cycles that we've seen in Michigan with other industries?
Jennifer Granholm: Well, this is why part of the agreement with hyperscalers has to be a long-term agreement for them so that they can't just build something and then leave and have citizens on the hook for it. There has to a commitment over a long term so that we know that that's the case. I mean, that's part of trust, that a community is not left holding the bag, and that's part of what has to negotiated up front. That is being negotiated in many of these places. But again, I think that a lot of times, communities that haven't had experience with bringing in these hyperscalers because they're all new, we're all learning, right? They have to have a checklist of what needs to happen if a hyperscaler comes knocking. And that checklist has to include a long-term commitment. A long term commitment to paying for that infrastructure so that somebody down the road for 10 years is not paying for it instead of them.
Lisa Wozniak: Based on all we've talked about today, what level of optimism do you have for a cleaner and more efficient energy future?
Jennifer Granholm: Oh Lisa, I look over the horizon for the next election where I think we'll have a federal partner in this rather than an administration that is steering away from renewables. You know, if the Inflation Reduction Act, which was of course the signature environmental law that was passed in 2022, if that had remained as it was. We would be just moving like gangbusters to both build, as well as deploy, clean energy. What replaced the Inflation Reduction Act, the one big beautiful bill as it's called, didn't remove all of the incentives. So, batteries, for example, are still incentivized, and that's very good news. Hydroelectric power is incentivized. Nuclear is incentivized. Geothermal is incentivized. So those are still in place, but solar and wind are not. And that's just, to me, so illogical if you want to move in this direction. I have great hope that we will still get there. We'll be pushed back a few years but I think you can see where the world is going, states are going and people most importantly want their energy to be homegrown reliable and clean.
David Fair: Madam Secretary, thank you so much for the conversation insights and your perspective! We do appreciate it!
Jennifer Granholm: All right! You bet! Thanks so much having me on!
David Fair: That is former Michigan Governor and U.S. Energy Secretary Jennifer Granholm, our guest on the April edition of WEMU's First Friday Focus on the Environment. My co-host and content partner is Lisa Wozniak and Lisa is CEO and President of the Michigan League of Conservation Voters and we'll see you on May 1st!
Lisa Wozniak: I look forward to it, David!
David Fair: I'm David Fair, and this is your Community NPR station, 89.1 WEMU Ypsilanti.
Non-commercial, fact based reporting is made possible by your financial support. Make your donation to WEMU today to keep your community NPR station thriving.
Like 89.1 WEMU on Facebook and follow us on X (Twitter)
Contact WEMU News at 734.487.3363 or email us at studio@wemu.org
