About Prof. Todd Allen
An offer to skip history class in high school to listen to a Navy ROTC recruiter sent Todd Allen on a serendipitous journey that led to him becoming one of the top U.S. experts in nuclear energy, with focus on the material science of nuclear systems.
Todd began his professional career as a submarine officer in the U.S. Navy where he learned the practical applications of operating a nuclear power plant as well as how to take a submarine to periscope depth. Following active duty, he built on that practical Navy experience by earning a Ph.D. in nuclear engineering with specific focus on how radiation changes the physical properties of metals.
His first post-Ph.D. position was as a staff scientist at Argonne National Laboratory. While at Argonne, he joined the leadership team tasked with developing the Generation IV Roadmap, the document that framed the resurgence of the nuclear research programs early in the 21st Century.
Following Argonne, he joined the faculty at the University of Wisconsin. While there, he split his time between establishing a premier material science program at the university and supporting the Idaho National Laboratory. At INL, he led the transition of the Advanced Test Reactor into a national user facility, creating a unique distributed network of national research facilities working together to support novel research ideas brought by universities and private industry. He also ran a six-institution Energy Frontier Research Center focused on answering fundamental questions about heat transfer in nuclear fuel.
From 2013-2016, he helped lead the Idaho National Laboratory as the Deputy Laboratory Director for Science & Technology, including being an important contributor to the development of the Gateway for Accelerated Innovation in Nuclear (GAIN) initiative announced at the White House in November 2015.
He is the author of over 200 technical publications, many of which are readable.
Todd has degrees in nuclear engineering and management information systems. He is a native of Michigan and tries very hard to find ways to watch baseball. His best summer ever (2016) was 64 different stadiums across the U.S.
Resources
University of Michigan Nuclear Engineering & Radiological Sciences
USGS releases first-ever map of potential for geologic hydrogen in U.S.
Transcription
David Fair: This is 89.1 WEMU, and today, we want to explore the potential that lay beneath our feet. The geology of Michigan is such that it is a rich environment for research on the potential of hydrogen as a large-scale energy resource. I'm David Fair, and welcome to this week's edition of Issues of the Environment. The Ann Arbor region has become central in the research and public debate over hydrogen. Our guest is in the center of those discussions. Todd Allen is Associate Dean for Research at the University of Michigan College of Engineering. And thank you so much for making time for us today!
Prof. Todd Allen: Glad to be part of the discussion!
David Fair: Well, please forgive my naivety here. Most of the hydrogen used in our lives today is industrially manufactured. The geological hydrogen we'll be discussing today is of natural origin and has to be extracted from the subsurface. Is there a difference in the way these two sources are used?
Prof. Todd Allen: No. Actually, once you have them, you could use them in the same way. So, we typically think of hydrogen as an energy carrier like electricity. There's lots of hydrogen in the world, but most of it is tied up in something. It's tied up in water. It's tied up in natural gas. And so, we typically use a little energy to separate it, and then, we can take it wherever you want to use it. You mentioned industrial, but you could you do for transportation--fuel cells as an example. You could use it in industrial processing, but once you've separated it, you can move it to where you want to use it, then you would use it. And so, in this case, the only real difference when we're talking about geologic is that in geologic, the Earth is separating it for us and has done that work. Whereas traditionally, we have to use some energy to free the hydrogen up, so we can use it later.
David Fair: Well, what makes Washtenaw County and much of the Lower Peninsula of Michigan such an attractive place for research and development of geologic hydrogen?
Prof. Todd Allen: I think it's a combination of a couple things. So, the U.S. Geological Survey put out a report a little over a year ago that, based on geology, so not actual drilling, not actually looking for underground hydrogen. But based on geology, they've said the state of Michigan, broadly, should be one of the locations in the country where you're most likely to find significant amounts of free underground hydrogen. And then, I think, across the state, there are a number of research institutes. University of Michigan happened to be one of them, but Western Michigan, as an example, has a really strong geology program around hydrogen. And so, I think we're positioned well to help the state understand the possibility that it's there and the ways to use it. So, at the University of Michigan, we do have geologists who are experts and will be useful in helping us understand where to find geologic hydrogen. But we also, through our MI Hydrogen Program, which is the university cross-campus hydrogen initiative, we've done a lot of studies on hydrogen demand and cost and things like that that we can also support the state with.
David Fair: Based on what you know today, how does it stack up against other energy sources in terms of cost and viability?
Prof. Todd Allen: So, if you look at hydrogen from where you first brought it up, sort of, you use it industrially where you have to separate it. We typically do that industrially by burning natural gas, and that's relatively inexpensive. If you wanted to do it without using fossil fuels, though, it tends to be expensive. And that's actually been one of the limitations in our ability to use it at a large scale. If you can find it underground, it should be much, much cheaper and much more competitive because, as I mentioned, the Earth's natural processes have already done the separation for you. So, in that case, it could be significantly game-changing in the way we think about hydrogen from being primarily an energy carrier to transmit energy from one place to another to a national energy source, similar to the way you think about anything that you drill for. Like, natural gas is a good example.
David Fair: We're talking with Todd Allen on WEMU's Issues of the Environment. He is Associate Dean for Research at University of Michigan College of Engineering. You mentioned fuel cells, and we already have some of those vehicles out on the roadways. Toyota and Honda have such vehicles, but you don't really find too many outside of California. If, in fact, we find this mass of geologic hydrogen here in the Midwest, would it, in your estimation, change the future of vehicle power generation and the direction of the automotive industry as a whole?
Prof. Todd Allen: It could. It could lead to a lot stronger presence of zero carbon vehicles. We, traditionally, when we thought about hydrogen vehicles, think that hydrogen makes much more sense in larger vehicles—heavy-duty trucking, for instance. Because if you're trying to do this in a zero-carbon way, we've gotten fairly good at using batteries for sedan-style cars. So, it could make a big difference and how quickly you could adopt heavier vehicles, right? So, right now, there's a few examples in the state where people are using it—the city of Flint, for instance. Their MTA is a leader in trying to convert to hydrogen-powered busses. But if geologic hydrogen becomes available in significant quantities, then, suddenly, fuel cells become much more competitive, and you might see greater use across all transportation. And I say all because it could involve shipping and other things where you typically use fossil fuel.
David Fair: Now if we find that there is this mass of hydrogen under our feet, what is the process of withdrawal? How much drilling needs to be done and what kind of drilling?
Prof. Todd Allen: So, I think that's a little bit of an unknown because we haven't ever really had a hydrogen industry. So, in talking to some geologist colleagues at Sandia National Laboratory, I think a lot of the drilling techniques are similar to what we already do.
David Fair: So, we could see fracking?
Prof. Todd Allen: It wouldn't be the same as fracking, right? Because if the hydrogen already exists in pockets, then you don't need like fracking fluids and things. But the depth that you would go at would be sort of order of magnitude of fracking, maybe a little deeper. So, in that sense, it will seem similar to that. Now, I should differentiate. There's two types of geologic hydrogen that people talk about: natural, which means it's already there, and stimulated, which mean you need to inject some water in to make the reaction go faster. If you're injecting water in, technologically, that's a little closer to fracking.
David Fair: Our Issues of the Environment conversation continues with U of M Associate Dean for Research at University of Michigan College of Engineering, Todd Allen, on 89.1 WEMU. Now, your job and your focus is science, but very little gets done without at least the touch of the American political arm. We've seen advancements in solar and wind energy and electric vehicles, but progress is slowed under the current federal administration. What would the scientific community need from the federal government in order to make hydrogen a more viable option?
Prof. Todd Allen: Yeah, I think there's two answers to that question. So, this administration cut back significantly on things the Biden administration was trying to do to deploy hydrogen more broadly. The Biden administration, they sort of view this as a chicken and egg problem. If you're building hydrogen power vehicles, who's making the hydrogen for you? If you are wanting to make hydrogen, do you have buyers? And they were trying to use some government funding to get past that. That all slowed down a lot. I think, with regards to geologic hydrogen, because it's very new and there hasn't been a lot of drilling, and while the U.S. Geological Survey thinks the state of Michigan will be a good place to find it, we haven't really proven it. But I do think that this administration, who is more supportive of extractive-type technologies, my understanding is they're thinking hard about a hydrogen program that would be focused on geologic. So, my sense is, in the political world right now, this administration will not go back towards the things the Biden administration was doing, but it seems like they're getting behind the idea of at least trying to find out if geologic hydrogen is as significant as the USGS predicts.
David Fair: Well, here in Michigan, Governor Gretchen Whitmer signed an executive order requiring a number of agencies to report by April 1st on environmental safeguards and subsurface leasing matters. Based on your conversations, are those reports going to be ready and what might we learn from them?
Prof. Todd Allen: So, I think that they'll be the initial start. I think, in some cases, they will point out questions that still need to be resolved. But I think they'll very useful. They'll be able to talk about things like, for our current extraction rules, do you need anything else into the regulations beyond what you already do, right, if you're going to look for hydrogen. So, I we'll get a lot of really good useful information there, but I think they will also end up pointing to things we need to research more or policies that may need to be adopted in order more efficiently go after that. I should, in a shameless plug, say the University of Michigan, we're hosting an event in May around this issue, and we're hoping to get some of the government leaders to report out on how far they've gotten.
David Fair: Well, what comes next on your plate when it comes to this research?
Prof. Todd Allen: So, I think, from our point of view, we'll continue to do studies that look at the costs and the way to optimize the distribution of hydrogen assets, so you get the most value from the state. I think our geologist colleagues will look at things like, is there any past drilling data that you could go back in that may have shown some evidence of where hydrogen was detected, even though that's not what they were looking for at the time. Are there ways to optimize, right, where you might want to do a test drill to see what's possible? And as a public university, I think we also have a job of helping develop workforce, people who can understand hydrogen and work in that world and possibly partnering with our community college partners on different levels of workforce development. And I also think that we can also help generally educating the public about what is going on in hydrogen and what are the potential advantages and where do we need to do some work before it be possible--a lot of the things that we're talking about this morning.
David Fair: Well, I, for one, look forward to learning what the research will show us, and I look forward to being educated along the way! Thank you so much for informing me today!
Prof. Todd Allen: Yeah! Always glad to help!
David Fair: That is Todd Allen. He is Associate Dean for Research at the University of Michigan College of Engineering. He joined us today to discuss the realities, challenges and possibilities of hydrogen energy. For more information, stop by our website at WEMU.org. Issues of the Environment is produced in partnership with the Office of the Washtenaw County Water Resources Commissioner, and we bring it to you every Wednesday. I'm David Fair, and this is your community NPR station, 89.1 WEMU Ypsilanti.
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